Rola/Celestion G12Ms Creamback reconed?

[mlannoo]

Need help with these codes. The speaker cone code primarily. I'm looking at a '74 4x12 Marshall cab and want to make sure the quad of speakers have not been reconed.

stamp on cone: RIC LDV (?)
stamp on frame: T 1221
GH 27 X

appreciate the help!
M

[Ted B]

The speakers are the correct model (T1221).

The speaker date of manufacture code refers to July, 1975. As such, the cab would be a late '75, not '74.

The "RIC" cones appear to be correct. This was a transition cone code that appeared between the cessation of the Pulsonic cones (003) and beginning of the Mueller cones (1777). That being said, the speakers appear to be original creambacks, probably correct to that cab.

[mlannoo]

Awesome. Thanks for the reply Ted!!
M

[BaronGreenback]

yeah its an original cone. they were using those RIC cones sporadically amongst other cone types from late 73 onwards. but I wander if the date stamp is back to front on that speaker? I havent seen a RIC stamped cone in 75 before, but it wouldnt be the first back to front stamp ive seen from that period.

those are nice cones too, under-rated. Not much value to them but I would take those over the later Kurt Muellers.

[mlannoo]

back to front stamp? meaning year / month reversed?

[BaronGreenback]

yes, so could be Aug 74 and not July 75. hard to say really with that particular speaker. i would expect a grey cover in 74 though.

generally speaking they were using the grey covers before the cream ones. so late 73 - sometime in 74 would have grey, then sometime in 74 - late 75 would have cream.

dont know exact transition dates though and there will always be some overlap. not an exact science.

[Jeff West]

I agree that the date codes were sometimes obviously reversed, harder to tell with "GH" though!

You do find "RIC" cones on quite a few '75 T1221s though, especially earlier in the year.

I've got a T1281 KF11 with "RIC LJY" cone that has the greenish creme not grey. Of course, the H covers sometimes followed a slightly different trajectory than the Ms.

J

[Scumback Speakers]

You're right about that Jeff. I've got a G12H30 Creamback T1460 (rare 8 ohm 55hz cone) with the 102 /14 Pulsonic cone. Pretty sure it's from late 73, but it might be early 74.

There is no absolutes...just rough time frame guidelines.

[Jeff West]

Hi Jim- Yes, BaronGreenback is right that although majority of '73s are greenback, the greys and creams started in final couple of months or so of 1973. I've seen greenbacks from early '74 though. I've got a greenish creamback T1534 from July '76, the plastic looks just like the 10/73 T1281, that's pretty late and my impression is the blackbacks tended to appear a little later on Hs than Ms. Have seen quite a few "M" blackbacks from '75, also creambacks. Although "RIC" cones appear at many earlier points, they seem to have had a common run for a year or so in 1974-75. I have seen early cream T1221s with Pulsonic cone #s. I do think the '70s RICs can sound good, but perhaps a little different than others. To me, the 55hz models with RIC often sound more like 75hz models. I've never made full sense of the number/letter codes following "RIC", anyone?

[jape88]

I've wondered on the RICLDV thing, I've read that R/C is Rola/Celestion so what's the LDV?

[Jeff West]

Yeah, that's what I was referring to, who knows?

The "RIC" is invariably followed by three characters. Most often a "1" or a "2" followed by two letters. In combo they may be a date code, indicate something about the cone (like "bass" vs. "lead"), or both, or ? I can tell you that Celestion and Duncan Boniface say they don't have any clues, and I don't think Jim Elyea does either about this but maybe he's just not talkin'!.

For awhile I thought that possibly 1 = 55hz res and 2 =75, since Celestion specs make this distinction, "2" often appears on "lead" models, but it doesn't hold up across all examples.

Then you have "L" instead of "1" or "2" on some like the one above.I've wondered if it could be a bad stamper for "1", but sure looks like "L"!

If any of you codebreakers are interested, some authentic "RIC 1" codes spotted on Celestions from '60s and '70s include: TD, SF, AU, HW, JA, WB, SL, KB, VV, DA, YI, and JC. Some "RIC 2" codes include: RJ, RM, RN, SA, and RO. Plus LDV and LJY as above . . .

[BaronGreenback]

I think I read somewhere the 70's RIC cones were old stock from the early 60s, pre-pulsonic period. There are similarities in the tone so I can imagine that being true.

I sold a 'RIC1K1' stamped alnico recently (or RIC1KI), from 1961 and it was an 8 Ohm speaker, model B024. Another one for your list.

[Scumback Speakers]

I wouldn't doubt that Celestion had stacks of cones sitting there for years for rarer models (or earlier ones, etc) or as specs changed from the people they supplied speakers to. Quite frankly anything from them is generally a "guideline for a time frame" type thing. I've had so many oddballs come up that "shouldn't be that cone or coil" in the last 14 years I've been researching these that I've just thrown up my hands and say "There's no telling. Send me pics!"

The RIC I was told is actually supposed to be "R / C" for "Rola Celestion" but apparently the stamp was inconsistent. I've seen that with their cone # fonts, too, so you can't rule it out.

I've never heard a Creamback I liked yet unless it had an 003/014 cone, or a 1777/444 cone. The R/C cones were just sort of "meh", at least from the ones I've heard in the past. Granted I've only heard about a dozen or so and with all the variables in how they could have been overpowered or stored improperly there's no guarantee I heard any holy grail models.

[mlannoo]

well, i'm extremely glad i ended up buying this. i think the creamback's sound REALLY good in this cab. now i don't have a room full of marshall cabs to compare it with, but the amps i've tried with it pair up nicely (18 watt, DR-504 ... and the Naylor in particular really makes it sing). loud, punchy ... with no harsh mid range.

[Jeff West]

Great that you like those.

The range/response of some of the RIC versions might possibly be a little different, but they do break up nicely like other versions IME. FWIW there's an old Vintage Guitar column where Ken Fischer mentions the nice sound of some creambacks, although I don't think he specified the cone on those.